Sbeckman7's Project: BR1

General conversations about BMW E28s and the people who own them.
Tammer in Philly
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Post by Tammer in Philly »

sbeckman7 wrote:
The main idea of this project is not to have a fast car, it's to have a car that can boast hp/ton figures similar to those of the fastest cars in the world. I want it to be faster than any Ferrari, Porsche, or Lambo sitting in showrooms right now, and I want to be able to say that I made it. If a Caterham with 500hp can get all that power to the ground with even less weight and much skinnier tires, I should have no trouble.
A Caterham R500 has a very different rear suspension design that is quite similar to a live axle and can put down power far better than the independent semi-trailing arms on your car. It also has very different anti-dive/squat geometry.

-tammer
sbeckman7
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Post by sbeckman7 »

Good point. Well, I'll let everyone know how well e28 suspension geometry copes with a 1500lb curb weight and ~300hp/tq ;)
mtnman533
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Post by mtnman533 »

I'd just like to point out the R500 has ~250 hp 4banger, not 500 :), and weighs just over 550kg, giving it about the same hp/ton numbers as a veyron.

This is a great build, and props to the metal shop teacher letting you do this in his shop.

I look forward to watching this get finished.
sbeckman7
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Post by sbeckman7 »

Ah yes, the Caterham I was referring to is called the Levante and is not actually produced in house by Caterham. http://www.autoblog.com/2008/02/26/cate ... rk-scares/

I can't wait till this car is running :D
mtnman533
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Post by mtnman533 »

Oh ok, wow, I hadn't seen that yet... crazy.

Good luck!
Tammer in Philly
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Post by Tammer in Philly »

http://www.arielatom.com/specs/atom-3-specs
Even the Atom (with a much more sophisticated suspension and a mid-engine layout) starts off at 7 lb/hp, which is about where you'd land with an M30 w/ chip, headers, and free exhaust (figure 200 hp).

If you want to be at 5 lb/hp (300 hp), then go with an S52 and a few bolt-ons. As I said, 240 whp is easily achievable with cams, they're reliable, easy to work on, low-maintenance, and have a ton of aftermarket support. The LS motors seem great until you realize that on track, they tend to have severe oiling issues. They just don't cope well with extended lateral loading. On the flip side, there are lots of 200k-mile S52s that have been on track for 10% of their lives.

-tammer
sbeckman7
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Post by sbeckman7 »

Aren't S52's much more expensive than LS1's? I haven't heard anyone address oiling issues so far, but I haven't ben looking for them either.

Yet another engine is added to the list :roll:

Anyway, if I did get an S50/52, i guess I could keep those ITB's and use them. S50 or S52 OBD1 conversion + WAR chip + cam, headers, etc. could end well.
Tammer in Philly
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Post by Tammer in Philly »

sbeckman7 wrote:Aren't S52's much more expensive than LS1's? I haven't heard anyone address oiling issues so far, but I haven't ben looking for them either.

Yet another engine is added to the list :roll:

anyway, if I did get an S50/52, i guess I could keep those ITB's and use them. S50 or S52 OBD1 conversion + WAR chip + cam, headers, etc. could end well.
Price depends on how much you want to work. It's not that hard or rare to find E36 M3s available for $6k complete, and if you part out the car and keep the motor it gets cheap quickly. You can find wrecked M3s for ~$2k, sell off some bits and keep the motor/harness. You could go a lot cheaper and pick up an M50 for probably under $1k, throw in a set of S50 cams, and with an intake/headers/tune you can pretty quickly get to stock M3 output (~240 hp) for under $1500 in hardware. Plus, that motor is much more rev-happy than an M30 so it would suit the character of your car, IMO.

I don't know what your overall clearances are, but given that you've designed this chassis around an inline 6, it's probably easiest to stick with that. I think you're underestimating how light a 1500-lb car really is, and how that translates into acceleration and braking. I drove a Ford-motored F2000 open-wheeler, and with 150 HP and ~1,200 lbs, it was not lacking for power and was a 4-second 0-60 car despite its VERY tall 1st gear.

-tammer
e281985
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Post by e281985 »

My two cents - It is billed as an e28 race car, use an e28 engine. M30 all the way man! It is such a great engine and like others have said they can be built up nicely. Please no LS1
Matt
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Post by Matt »

Why not use the M30 + wiring harness + ECU _for now_ and then after the car is done and all the bugs are worked out and you're after more power or revs or whatever, you're doing an engine swap in a finished car.... instead of letting the completion of your car get held up by drivetrain indecision and fabricatoin problems..
mooseheadm5
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Post by mooseheadm5 »

sbeckman7 wrote:anyway, if I did get an S50/52, i guess I could keep those ITB's and use them.
No, you can't. The port spacing on an M50 based engine is much closer than on an S38. They could be made to fit, but only if you added an extension to them, which would not be desirable from a flow, design, or packaging standpoint.
sbeckman7
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Post by sbeckman7 »

Matt wrote:Why not use the M30 + wiring harness + ECU _for now_ and then after the car is done and all the bugs are worked out and you're after more power or revs or whatever, you're doing an engine swap in a finished car.... instead of letting the completion of your car get held up by drivetrain indecision and fabricatoin problems..
I was thinking I'd do this. The only thought that stops me from saying "absolutely yes" is what if I am able to afford my dream engine by then? I don't want to have to redo all the engine and tranny mounts (and possibly driveshaft) within a few months of using the stock M30. But then again, I originally chose this parts car because of the legendary Big Six which I know from experience in my e34 to be amazing when paired with a 5 speed. Still, does it make sense to attempt to turn one into a high output engine? Not financially at least, and not reliably.

So I won't be able to use ITB's on an S50/52, but it is still a potential runner. Seems like I could get to 300hp N/A. Of course, like all the other BMW engine options, parts are expensive and replacing race parts with race parts (as supposed to keeping an engine stock) is always going to be more expensive. That's a minus for the stressed german engines. I just read 5 or six very long threads saying "dont waste your time trying to get a S50/52 over 300hp N/A cause the cost isnt worth it," which is exactly what I remember hearing about the M30 I was originally planning on.

I guess at this point I can pretty much rule out the BMW V8's due to their size (DOHC has a price), even though they seem so sophisticated and the M60's sound absolutely wonderful. That leaves the LS1, which despite the oil issue claim, I am still reading to be a great engine for autox and occasional track time.

Let's say my total driveline budget is 4k. Choices are M30, S50, S52, and LS1.

...unless someone finds an M60B40 for $500..
Tammer in Philly
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Post by Tammer in Philly »

sbeckman7 wrote:Aren't S52's much more expensive than LS1's? I haven't heard anyone address oiling issues so far, but I haven't ben looking for them either.

Yet another engine is added to the list :roll:

anyway, if I did get an S50/52, i guess I could keep those ITB's and use them. S50 or S52 OBD1 conversion + WAR chip + cam, headers, etc. could end well.
http://www.ls1tech.com/forums/road-raci ... blems.html
From my own "circle," I know of a few guys who have blown up low-mileage LSx motors at the track, usually with low oil pressure being a culprit. As this thread states, the LS6 (C5 Z06 motor) seems more robust, but it's definitely not in your price range. 405 stock HP would be pretty amazing, and they rip at high RPM. I've seen dynos of 385 at the wheels with only an intake, exhaust, and tune, which is pretty amazing. But still, for your budget, design, and intended use, I'd stick with a BMW 6. At $4k, I think my suggestion would be a stock M30 for now, and it will be easily adapted to a worked-over M30B35 later (buy used motor for $500-600, have Paul Burke work your cylinder head and bump the compression, and drop in a 240-hp-ish torquey beast).

-tammer
sbeckman7
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Post by sbeckman7 »

Tammer in Philly wrote: From my own "circle," I know of a few guys who have blown up low-mileage LSx motors at the track, usually with low oil pressure being a culprit. As this thread states, the LS6 (C5 Z06 motor) seems more robust, but it's definitely not in your price range. 405 stock HP would be pretty amazing, and they rip at high RPM. I've seen dynos of 385 at the wheels with only an intake, exhaust, and tune, which is pretty amazing. But still, for your budget, design, and intended use, I'd stick with a BMW 6. At $4k, I think my suggestion would be a stock M30 for now, and it will be easily adapted to a worked-over M30B35 later (buy used motor for $500-600, have Paul Burke work your cylinder head and bump the compression, and drop in a 240-hp-ish torquey beast).

-tammer

Ok. Let's say I went down this route, since I'm already halfway there. What sort of redline would the m30 see? 6500? I know 7k is a bit much, but the more the merrier. Of course, that pushes me into reliability issues. I'll do some more talking with Paul, but seems like if anything went wrong, it would be the "$$$$$$" kind of wrong.
scott s
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Post by scott s »

I'm somewhat looking at the same kind of swap as you are...

I want to do either an s50/s52 swap into an e30 or an m30b35 turbo into an e30. I figure they would both be about the same price in the long run but I didn't think you could bust out 240 out of a b35.

Tammer: about how much would that cost to have him mess with the cylinder heads and bump up the compression? Also, how would the engine do with a turbo on top?
sbeckman7
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Post by sbeckman7 »

Paul said he could give me the parts necessary for a 260hp engine for about 3k. Getting it built, if you cant do it yourself (which I'm hoping I can?) will cost more obviously

That said, I already have a set of ITB's that's not being included in the cost
scott s
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Post by scott s »

Eh, for that money I'd rather throw an s50/52 into an e30.

Are you going to be at any Wednesday Night Drags this year?
Tammer in Philly
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Post by Tammer in Philly »

scott s wrote:I'm somewhat looking at the same kind of swap as you are...

I want to do either an s50/s52 swap into an e30 or an m30b35 turbo into an e30. I figure they would both be about the same price in the long run but I didn't think you could bust out 240 out of a b35.

Tammer: about how much would that cost to have him mess with the cylinder heads and bump up the compression? Also, how would the engine do with a turbo on top?
Those are questions for Paul. For an E30, go with the M5x/S5x family. Higher specific output, higher efficiency, less maintenance, easier packaging (the big six is a very tight fit; the M5x motors are very similar to the M20).

-tammer
sbeckman7
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Post by sbeckman7 »

scott s wrote:Eh, for that money I'd rather throw an s50/52 into an e30.

Are you going to be at any Wednesday Night Drags this year?
Probably a couple times. I was the kid who asked you about your car briefly if you remember. Once this thing is done though, I'll have to bring it there ;)
scott s
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Post by scott s »

Oh, haha yeah, I remember.

I don't know if they'll let you take your car with out a chassis/ full roll cage over your head...

I should be there a bunch but I may not always have my car. I'll try to bring my brother's e30 a few times and my e28 a bunch.

Need to chat it up next time we are both there.
sbeckman7
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Post by sbeckman7 »

Sounds good. Yeah I'm not sure if I can do it with just a roll bar...
tsmall07
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Post by tsmall07 »

Whatever you end up doing, it'll be interesting to see. I just think you'll end up facing backwards more than forwards on the track with that much power.
Tammer in Philly
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Post by Tammer in Philly »

tsmall07 wrote:Whatever you end up doing, it'll be interesting to see. I just think you'll end up facing backwards more than forwards on the track with that much power.
Especially with a short wheelbase ... should be entertaining for sure, though.

-tammer
sbeckman7
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Post by sbeckman7 »

Tammer in Philly wrote:
tsmall07 wrote:Whatever you end up doing, it'll be interesting to see. I just think you'll end up facing backwards more than forwards on the track with that much power.
Especially with a short wheelbase ... should be entertaining for sure, though.

-tammer
Yeah. This car is being built with high expectations of entertainment :)

Judging by the last few days events, who knows if this will remain a permanent idea, but for now I am planning on getting the car running with the M30 and eventually switching over to an LS1. The BMW engines are simply too expensive to build and maintain to justify when I could have the same power for less. I joined an LS1 forum and found an oil system called Accusump that the autox/weekend racers swear by. I consider it to be worth the <$300 for the pump and reserve tank. It provides oil pressure on startup and is one step below a full dry-sump system. So it looks like the LS1 will be the engine to push this car from scary-fast to insane.
Tammer in Philly
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Post by Tammer in Philly »

sbeckman7 wrote:
Tammer in Philly wrote:
tsmall07 wrote:Whatever you end up doing, it'll be interesting to see. I just think you'll end up facing backwards more than forwards on the track with that much power.
Especially with a short wheelbase ... should be entertaining for sure, though.

-tammer
Yeah. This car is being built with high expectations of entertainment :)

Judging by the last few days events, who knows if this will remain a permanent idea, but for now I am planning on getting the car running with the M30 and eventually switching over to an LS1. The BMW engines are simply too expensive to build and maintain to justify when I could have the same power for less. I joined an LS1 forum and found an oil system called Accusump that the autox/weekend racers swear by. I consider it to be worth the <$300 for the pump and reserve tank. It provides oil pressure on startup and is one step below a full dry-sump system. So it looks like the LS1 will be the engine to push this car from scary-fast to insane.
Accusumps help, but they don't solve everyone's problems. Still, I agree that it's tough to argue against the LS1 when it comes to price/performance/packaging/mass. It'll be a monster for sure.

-tammer
sbeckman7
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Post by sbeckman7 »

True. If I were hitting the track every couple of days I could see the need for a different engine. Should be fine for my purposes though. Cheap, reliable, beautiful sounding power. :cool:
Tammer in Philly
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Post by Tammer in Philly »

sbeckman7 wrote:True. If I were hitting the track every couple of days I could see the need for a different engine. Should be fine for my purposes though. Cheap, reliable, beautiful sounding power. :cool:
My cautionary statement is still this: you're building a RACE CAR, so the only functional measure of reliability is under RACE conditions. The LS1 is very likely to give you trouble. If you know that and you still want to go that way, it's cool, just don't delude yourself into thinking that it'll all be just fine. You will have to spend money on a dry sump to keep it reliable on track. I doubt the Accusump will be enough.

-tammer
sbeckman7
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Post by sbeckman7 »

Tammer in Philly wrote:
sbeckman7 wrote:True. If I were hitting the track every couple of days I could see the need for a different engine. Should be fine for my purposes though. Cheap, reliable, beautiful sounding power. :cool:
My cautionary statement is still this: you're building a RACE CAR, so the only functional measure of reliability is under RACE conditions. The LS1 is very likely to give you trouble. If you know that and you still want to go that way, it's cool, just don't delude yourself into thinking that it'll all be just fine. You will have to spend money on a dry sump to keep it reliable on track. I doubt the Accusump will be enough.

-tammer

It wouldn't see as much track time as you're making it out to (and part of that is my fault for calling this thread "E28 Race Car"), I'd just do some autox and a few trackdays if they permit my roll structure. It is not going to see enough track time with sustained high-g turns to worry about oiling issues.
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Post by C.R. Krieger »

sbeckman7 wrote:
Tammer in Philly wrote:
sbeckman7 wrote:True. If I were hitting the track every couple of days I could see the need for a different engine. Should be fine for my purposes though. Cheap, reliable, beautiful sounding power. :cool:
My cautionary statement is still this: you're building a RACE CAR, so the only functional measure of reliability is under RACE conditions. The LS1 is very likely to give you trouble. If you know that and you still want to go that way, it's cool, just don't delude yourself into thinking that it'll all be just fine. You will have to spend money on a dry sump to keep it reliable on track. I doubt the Accusump will be enough.

-tammer

It wouldn't see as much track time as you're making it out to
... It is not going to see enough track time with sustained high-g turns to worry about oiling issues.
That would have been my take on it, as I know of no sanctioning body that would currently approve it for competition. Even autocrossing, it's going to be an 'only car in its class' competitor.
sbeckman7
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Post by sbeckman7 »

...m70 anyone? Seriously though
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