GOD'S VENGEANCE - Complete Drivetrain Redux

[Murfinator]

Head bolts have a yield strength just like any other fastener. Its not necessarily an issue of clamping force as much as it is tensile strength.

Don't kid yourself about being too mature to push limits. You'll want more as soon as you get it running.

Very true, but with all the superficial work (cleaning, painting, powder coating, anodizing, polishing, etc...) I have plenty of incentive to keep it on the pavement and not in a guard rail, over a cliff or into a stack of tires.

[T_C_D]

How much space does the ABS line shield occupy? Fitment of the turbo outlet and intercooler are very tight.

[Murfinator]

How much space does the ABS line shield occupy? Fitment of the turbo outlet and intercooler are very tight.

The bulkiest part of the heat shield sits above and to the rear of the turbo outlet and intercooler inlet. Laterally from the strut tower it protrudes 1.5" in toward the centerline from the sheetmetal below the strut tower. This protrusion corresponds with the vertical rail which contains the plug for the ABS sensor. If it becomes a clearance issue I may have to resort to the alignment tool (sledge) and grinder.

[Murfinator]

Link to build thread: http://www.cardomain.com/ride/3904396/1988-bmw-5-series

[Nebraska_e28]

I'm there.

[EuroShark]

Any updates?

[thespeedfactory]

Nice build.

What happened to the ITB's? Updates?

I would highly recommend rocker locks. On your car running at Miller you will most likely be living up in the 6000-7000 range quite often. The factory coil type retaining springs will cause the rockers to walk.

It would be a shame to risk such a great cylinder head. I broke 3 rockers while going from 15-20 psi until I got locks. Then no more broken rockers ever.

[Murfinator]

Nice build.

What happened to the ITB's? Updates?

I would highly recommend rocker locks. On your car running at Miller you will most likely be living up in the 6000-7000 range quite often. The factory coil type retaining springs will cause the rockers to walk.

It would be a shame to risk such a great cylinder head. I broke 3 rockers while going from 15-20 psi until I got locks. Then no more broken rockers ever.

Thanks speedfactory. Unique looking build you have there. I'll be trolling for more information on your plenum, ignition and ECU choices.

With any luck Paul has found some time to put the finishing touches on my B36 ITB's and plates.

I've already put many laps on the car at Miller. Yes, the RPM's tend to hover ~5500 and I'm looking forward to the changes in drive train: rebuilt big case s3.07, 262 sport 5-speed and of course the motor.

Rocker locks are a farce. If the head has been assembled properly the arms should not walk off the shafts. Rather, the locks tend to oval the shaft and cause damage. Believe me, if there was any utility to adding them I would have. My build isn't about cutting corners but I do research the best price for the best gear.

What part of Korea?

[thespeedfactory]

Just south of Seoul. I will be on leave in Utah this summer doing some builds and retiring in the Ogden area in 2015. Would love to see the car running at Miller by July.

If you will be using the OEM TPS on the ITB's you will need to drastically modify the T-stat housing. I fabbed up ITB's in '08 and ran into this problem.

If the TPS can be relocated to the back side by the firewall it should work but I am not sure. WIll you be making a custom plenum or the factory M box?

I was using Haltech E11V2 with as much success as I could with no pro tuning or Dyno. It was difficult to street tune to 2.0 bar...LOL

[Murfinator]

I was stationed at Osan for a short stint in '92 while active with the Marines.

The car will likely be running late summer or fall. I'm taking my time.

To address the B34/35 t-stat clearance I've again called upon the wizardry of the great Paul Burke. He's made the necessary modifications to the housing. I'll be posting pics soon of his handiwork. The fuel rail has received similar touches, being similar to that on Ken's LH build some years past.

I'm contemplating using a stock E28/S38 plenum and modifying it to receive input between the 3/4 runners from the TCD w>a intercooler. I've considered ditching the TCD unit but like the economy of pipework it affords. Besides, I've tossed the crappy pump and heat exchangers that came with the TCD kit and upgraded to higher capacity units.

Been looking at the Haltech Platinum Sport 2000 ECU. Still undecided. Been busy gutting my stock fuel system.

[thespeedfactory]

Don't mess with stupid Walbros.

Bosch 044's

Are you running low or high imp injectors? I struggled to find perfect stoich idle with my low Z 750's. I had to settle for 13.9 idle.

Next build I am going with high imp 1200's.

What is your plan for fuel storage? Injectors? FPR?

Sorry if I ask too many questions. I had to strip the drag car down in summer 2010. Then I had a stupid GTR for a bit, then an even dumber EVO 4, and finally a decent STI Type R.

I am going through boosted BMW withdrawals...

[Murfinator]

No, I'm done with crappy Walbro's and the like. In running E85 it's important to upgrade from rubber fuel lines also. There's only so much flow one can squeeze through a straw (about the same diameter as the OE lines). Felt it time to step up to the big leagues and install some high quality gear: Aeromotive and Aeroquip.

The slides below are rough sketches of my fuel system and preliminary fitments of the hybridized fuel cell. I took two OE tanks and cut the top and bottom off and fabricated a baffle box for the in-tank Aeromotive A-1000 pump in their new 'Stealth' configuration. I took some pointers from Ken (see LH build) regarding similar modifications. Unfortunately Aeromotive hadn't release this pump set up in time for his build. The slides are from the fall. I've nearly completed the fabrication and am in the process of epoxy coating the interior of the tank, following which I will have the exterior powder coated then pressure tested for integrity. The return port location has changed to the vicinity of the OE sender unit. The lift pump ports have been fill welded. The floor of the tank has been cut to fit the baffle box such that it sits flat. Internal ribbing and minimum mounting depth of the pump/filter assembly necessitated reinforcement of the upper mounting surface and removal of the original tank bottom.

I'm perhaps most excited by the elegant utility of servicing of the pump and in-tank 100 micron filter once the tank is installed: like the OE pump/sender unit access hatch in the trunk floor I've added a second identical access hatch to the rear-center of the trunk where the stamping already provided a round, flat spot in the trunk floor. When you lift the carpet everything looks stock. It's almost too bad it will be covered.

[thespeedfactory]

Awesome stealth build.

Any noise concerns with the A1000? I elected against the A1000 external because of the noise. The in tank A1000 should be much quieter I would think.

Double check the in bay mock up of the 90 deg A/N fittings off of your fuel rail. I wanted to do that with my build but I hit the firewall and interfered with the cooling hoses.

I can't wait to build again with proper shops and fabrication like yours. Mine was unfortunately a home build.

Thanks for posting so many pics.

[FirstFives Dictator]

I'm surprised that you are using stock configuration on fuel rail at those power levels.
I'd be worried about uneven fuel distribution at cylinders closest to the supply line.

[Murfinator]

I'm surprised that you are using stock configuration on fuel rail at those power levels.
I'd be worried about uneven fuel distribution at cylinders closest to the supply line.

Thank you for your comment and a I appreciate your input. Aside from the supply line attaching at the firewall end of the rail the fuel rail configuration is anything but stock. The pressure will always remain rock steady given the manifold referenced FPR, more than adequate supply line diameter with full-flow connectors and speed controlled in-tank pump. At my estimated power level of ~500 hp I'll have more than enough fuel to feed the motor. Ken's build added a second pump, fuel rail and injectors but his power level or fuel requirement is about a third higher than mine. I agree with his sentiment that 500 hp is more than enough to soil my shorts.

Anything I should do differently?

[FirstFives Dictator]

I'm surprised that you are using stock configuration on fuel rail at those power levels.
I'd be worried about uneven fuel distribution at cylinders closest to the supply line.

Thank you for your comment and a I appreciate your input. Aside from the supply line attaching at the firewall end of the rail the fuel rail configuration is anything but stock. The pressure will always remain rock steady given the manifold referenced FPR, more than adequate supply line diameter with full-flow connectors and speed controlled in-tank pump. At my estimated power level of ~500 hp I'll have more than enough fuel to feed the motor. Ken's build added a second pump, fuel rail and injectors but his power level or fuel requirement is about a third higher than mine. I agree with his sentiment that 500 hp is more than enough to soil my shorts.

Anything I should do differently?

Edit: have you calculated the velocity of the fuel through the rail at max flow?

[Ken H.]

Edit: have you calculated the velocity of the fuel through the rail at max flow?

S/b a skosh under 1.29 fps if I have my numbers right--fuel line ID = .5", max flow on 65# injectors @ 75% duty cycle = 48.75# per hour.

[Ken H.]

I'm surprised that you are using stock configuration on fuel rail at those power levels.
I'd be worried about uneven fuel distribution at cylinders closest to the supply line.

Thank you for your comment and a I appreciate your input. Aside from the supply line attaching at the firewall end of the rail the fuel rail configuration is anything but stock. The pressure will always remain rock steady given the manifold referenced FPR, more than adequate supply line diameter with full-flow connectors and speed controlled in-tank pump.

Depending on whose standalone engine management is used, flow rates, pulse widths and duty cycles can be measured on a per-hole basis. That being said, using an individual cylinder trim can make appropriate adjustments.

This feature is one very good reason to consider the ELM TEC-3r. <<end commercial>>

[FirstFives Dictator]

I'm surprised that you are using stock configuration on fuel rail at those power levels.
I'd be worried about uneven fuel distribution at cylinders closest to the supply line.

Thank you for your comment and a I appreciate your input. Aside from the supply line attaching at the firewall end of the rail the fuel rail configuration is anything but stock. The pressure will always remain rock steady given the manifold referenced FPR, more than adequate supply line diameter with full-flow connectors and speed controlled in-tank pump.

Depending on whose standalone engine management is used, flow rates, pulse widths and duty cycles can be measured on a per-hole basis. That being said, using an individual cylinder trim can make appropriate adjustments.

This feature is one very good reason to consider the ELM TEC-3r. <<end commercial>>

Assuming you have:

a) 6 bungs in manifold

b) wideband sensors that will survive the heat. LSU-4 sensors will not. NTK will but six of them ain't a cheap date.


I just tuned a TR8 ITS race car and we trimmed each cylinder by rpm and load. This car was within 1/2 point for the most part before corrections. MegaSquirt MS3

[Ken H.]

Assuming you have:
a) 6 bungs in manifold
b) wideband sensors that will survive the heat. LSU-4 sensors will not. NTK will but six of them ain't a cheap date.
No sh*t.
I just tuned a TR8 ITS race car and we trimmed each cylinder by rpm and load. This car was within 1/2 point for the most part before corrections. MegaSquirt MS3

This is good work.
I used the TEC-3r on LH for a host of reasons. I don't think Murf has pulled the trigger yet on his standalone selection.
But getting things dialed in then doing the tedious work of the per-hole corrections on both fuel and ignition timing ran up time on the rollers something fierce.

[Murfinator]

With regard to dual input fuel rails and variable pressure levels within the rail: it is physically impossible to have variable fluid pressure at one end of the rail or at one injector compared to another injector input. For this condition to exist would be analogous to there being fluctuations in air pressure within a single tire; it doesn't happen in nature.

Made some progress with the fuel cell. I've cut a large hole in the top and bottom of one fuel cell which was in excellent condition and cut a larger piece out of the top of the cell which came out of the car but had a large dent in the bottom. There is a one inch overlap to support the pump assembly. Fabricated a baffle box as shown in prior posts and welded it into the rear bottom center of the fuel cell. The top piece from the other cell was cut to fit the Aeromotive A-1000 pump, pick up and 100 micron filter which will sit centered over the baffle box. An additional plate was welded to the top plate to reinforce the pump mounting position and add thickness and stand-off from the bottom of the cell. The pump assembly needs 9 3/4" of height and I had 9 7/8". With the additional plate there's now 10" and the pickup hovers slightly above the baffle box. The pump has a -10 AN fitting. I've added a -10 to -8 reducer and full-flow 90 degree elbow. The additional height this adds will necessitate lowering the entire tank. To service the pump/filter once installed there is a second round access hatch in the trunk floor supplementing the existing hatch over the OE sender and lift pump. The lift pump has been removed and feed/return ports cut and fill welded smooth. A -6 Aeroquip bulkhead fitting has been welded in place adjacent the OE sending unit on the OE cover to keep things clean. This fitting will serve as a fuel return and waterfall fuel back into the cell via the 2" fitting and a 90 degree -6 full-flow fitting. Feed and return hoses are -8 and -6 respectively, Aeroquip flexible TFE with braided stainless jacketing.

Since these photos were taken the top plate has been welded to the new cell and the tank thoroughly scrubbled, blasted, pressure washed, acid etched, cleaned with acetone and coated multiple times with fuel tank epoxy sealer on the interior. The exterior is being powder coated.

[FirstFives Dictator]

With regard to dual input fuel rails and variable pressure levels within the rail: it is physically impossible to have variable fluid pressure at one end of the rail or at one injector compared to another injector input. For this condition to exist would be analogous to there being fluctuations in air pressure within a single tire; it doesn't happen in nature.

Sounds like you have it figured out, then.

[FirstFives Dictator]

Assuming you have:
a) 6 bungs in manifold
b) wideband sensors that will survive the heat. LSU-4 sensors will not. NTK will but six of them ain't a cheap date.
No sh*t.
I just tuned a TR8 ITS race car and we trimmed each cylinder by rpm and load. This car was within 1/2 point for the most part before corrections. MegaSquirt MS3

This is good work.
I used the TEC-3r on LH for a host of reasons. I don't think Murf has pulled the trigger yet on his standalone selection.
But getting things dialed in then doing the tedious work of the per-hole corrections on both fuel and ignition timing ran up time on the rollers something fierce.

you might enjoy this screen shot. The 8 widebands were connected to the MS3 via CANBus.

[mooseheadm5]

With regard to dual input fuel rails and variable pressure levels within the rail: it is physically impossible to have variable fluid pressure at one end of the rail or at one injector compared to another injector input. For this condition to exist would be analogous to there being fluctuations in air pressure within a single tire; it doesn't happen in nature.

Sounds like you have it figured out, then.

[Murfinator]

you might enjoy this screen shot. The 8 widebands were connected to the MS3 via CANBus.

I suppose all 8 widebands are installed in the fuel rail...or the manifold? That's what I thought.

Perhaps you could provide an explanation of what your log is showing? Since you seem only to want to throw up about a screenshot I'll take a wild guess: AFR variations within individual intake runners or ITB's. Nice, but wouldn't the variation be explained by the sequential opening of injector pintles which disturbs both pressure and AFR in the area near the widebands? I'm assuming the widebands are installed near the injectors since you failed to elaborate regarding the layout of the system being measured in the log. I again assume it's a V8 race car you apparently make a good honest living tuning.

Helpful comments are appreciated but attempts to show your better informed than myself, a given since I'm a hobbyist and you do this for a living, aren't helpful.

Have you installed six wideband sensors in your E12?

[unt0uchable]

I must say, I've just poked through this thread reading most of it. This build seems equivalent to starting from nothing, engineering everything, and assembling it without (as you have noted many times) cutting any corners, anywhere, at all. I'm floored at the amount of detail and (for lack of better terms) properness that has been imposed on this build. I can only wish that one day, when I decide I need more juice under my foot, that I can follow even a remotely similar path that you have carved out here. I'm impressed. Which is obviously an overly used word in this thread. I can't wait to see the numbers, and hear your overall experience with the outcome. Good luck with the rest of the build. I too am taking notes, although most of this is way over my head.

[FirstFives Dictator]

you might enjoy this screen shot. The 8 widebands were connected to the MS3 via CANBus.

I suppose all 8 widebands are installed in the fuel rail...or the manifold? That's what I thought.

Perhaps you could provide an explanation of what your log is showing? Since you seem only to want to throw up about a screenshot I'll take a wild guess: AFR variations within individual intake runners or ITB's. Nice, but wouldn't the variation be explained by the sequential opening of injector pintles which disturbs both pressure and AFR in the area near the widebands? I'm assuming the widebands are installed near the injectors since you failed to elaborate regarding the layout of the system being measured in the log. I again assume it's a V8 race car you apparently make a good honest living tuning.

Helpful comments are appreciated but attempts to show your better informed than myself, a given since I'm a hobbyist and you do this for a living, aren't helpful.

Have you installed six wideband sensors in your E12?

Sorry that was hijack for Ken's viewing pleasure. They are located in each header primary. What it mostly shows is the OEM Rover EFI intake manifold is pretty well balanced. Our max correction was about 7% and that was very low rpm. Wideband O2 sensors are not that fast (despite what Innovate claims - the chemistry itself limits the response time) to show injector timing effects. A narrow-band would.

Sorry for hijack, I thought Ken would enjoy.

I'm not going to bother installing widebands in my headers at this point. I'm doubtful that the variation will be measurable in power.

[turbodan]

Oxygen sensors are generally installed in the exhaust system.

[Murfinator]

Thanks for the clarification. I've noted your comments and intend to take advantage of the wisdom of those members possessing experience and knowledge beyond my own with regard to FI and tuning. This isn't my first build, nor my first FI build but I know my own limitations. I'm also attempting to perform most of the work myself to gain the experience and pride of craftsmanship.

I realize there may be areas where the build could be improved to squeeze a few more hp from the motor. However, the gains would likely not be worth the effort or noticeable from the driver's seat. Also understood are my limitations in the realm of driving skill since I've been conditioned to driving a Jeep, Subaru and rental cars for the past 2 years since the E28 has been on jacks. Gran Turismo helps but it's certainly not the same. To paraphrase others, anything over 350-400hp is just increased wheel spin. Even with sticky ExtremeContact 275's in the rear a motor outputing ~500hp will be a beast to control.

Dan, I was being facetious regarding the widebands. I'll be placing one in the downpipe.

[mooseheadm5]

Even though you are being pretty rude to Peter, I'll help you out.

The idea that pressure cannot be different in the fuel rail at different locations is simply not true. If things were completely static, I'd say that the pressure would be damn near constant at any point in the rail. Thing is, there is flow. There is flow through the rail and there is flow though the injectors. This flow is not constant and the FPR does not necessarily react instantaneously to pressure changes in the rail. The injectors open and close which causes pressure waves through the rail. These pressure waves can cause all sorts of freaky things to happen in the rail in the same way that valves opening and closing cause flow and pressure changes in an intake manifold. Though you would generally analyze the system with the fluid being non-compressible, but there are more factors at play here, such as the momentum of the fluid. An analogous system would be the piping in a house. Here is a little info on hydraulic shock (water hammer.)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_hammer

You also don't design manifolds for water distribution in such a way that multiple near simultaneous consumers are teed off sequentially because there would be a pressure drop at the end. This can be mitigated by having multiple feed locations to a manifold and by making your manifold larger so that it acts as a pressure reservoir.

FYI, there are fluctuations in air pressure in a single tire when the system isn't perfectly static, just as there are pressure differences inside your intake manifold when there is flow.

Now next time you should simply ask "why is that?" instead of thinking you know everything and smacking down someone that is only trying to help, especially when you already recognize that they are an expert in their field.